Curse

Hector · Dec 28, 2005, 01:07 AM // 01:07

I've been playing around with monks in CA lately and had some success, but still feel like I'm falling short somewhere. I'm hoping that I can get some advice here on ways to improve my monking! The build I'm using at the moment is as follows:

Mo/N

Blood Magic: 10
Protection Prayers: 8 +1
Divine Favour: 12 +1 +1

Skills:
1. Reversal of Fortune
2. Guardian
3. Mend Ailment
4. Contemplation of Purity
5. Divine Boon
6. Holy Veil
7. Offering of Blood
8. Rez Signet

The build seems to work fairly well, but I seem to run out of energy pretty quickly if I'm under attack, even if I only maintain the one enchantment (divine boon). I think the trouble might be I take more damage than my better armoured comrades and run out of energy trying to keep up. Then I'm too low on health to use OoB and die moments later.

Does anyone have any changes or pointers please to improve my game? Can this kind of monk work, or is it better really to go with a healing monk? Maybe I just need better energy management, or just more practice? I have tried healing prayers, but that's so frantic trying to keep up with spamming Orison and Dwayna's, and I die perhaps even faster with that type of build.

Thanks in advance.

Racthoh · Dec 28, 2005, 02:28 AM // 02:28

The boon/prot is a much better option for CA, and your attributes look good.

I don't really know what to say as that is pretty much the same build I use. You might be able to get away with swapping out the res sig for something else. My personal preference is Signet of Devotion as the option to heal for a fair amount of health even when energy is scarce.

ump · Dec 28, 2005, 05:31 PM // 17:31

I use almost the same build (with the exception of Mend Condition instead of Mend Ailment because in CA conditions are rarely stacked and it's heals more when there is only one or two conditions plus I can CoP for myself). Here is a few pointers that may put you over the top.

First, try using a rod and focus that include the increase skill recharge for Blood Magic instead. That way, you have a better chance to cast Offering of Blood faster. Energy management is the key to being a monk and Offering of Blood is the best way to go.

Second, on the weapon switch, include a rod and focus that include +15/-1 energy. Use a weapon switch when you have no energy but are able to cast Offering of Blood. Switch back after you cast it and have some more energy.

Third, start the match casting both Divine Boon and Holy Veil on yourself. This way, your first CoP will heal you more (saving you some energy to heal yourself). If you're not using CoP quickly enough at the start of battle, considering dropping Holy Veil even before your first CoP because the energy degeneration will hurt in the long run.

Fourth, focus on staying alive first. Heal your allies only when they are roughly half in life or if you are not taking damage. Rely on Guardian and Mend Ailment and try to save Reversal of Fortune when you need to heal someone quick. Usually, if everyone is focusing on you and you are able to stay alive long enough, your team can eliminate at least someone on the other team making your life easier.

Fifth, if you cast Guardian on yourself before you use Contemplation of Purity, you will heal yourself more (because you have another enchantment).

Sixth, I prefer not to use Holy Veil in the middle of a battle and just heal through it with CoP. I cannot afford the energy degeneration in the middle of a battle.

Seventh, always reapply Divine Boon immediately after a CoP. This will keep the healing power up as both are really fast to cast and you are able to CoP again in the future. CoP is the key to staying alive and Divine Boon will make sure that CoP works.

ecirbaf · Dec 28, 2005, 10:42 PM // 22:42

I don't have much experience with Guardian, but even from the skill description alone I would swap it for something else.

My first suggestion would be Protective Spirit. It's faster cast, and can last up to 19 seconds so it's worth the energy cost imho. It can really help keep yourself alive as well. I often 'tanked' warriors with Protective Spirit + other skills. You have the time to self heal AND heal someone else while a tank is beating on you. I doubt you can do that if you have to spam Guardian on yourself every 5 seconds.

The rest sounds good but I can't comment much since I run a Monk/Mesmer (so I use other skills for 6 & 7).

Also while I like Boon in PvE I didnt feel the need for it in CA, I prefer to use the passive effect of Divine Favour, and bring a good healing spell instead, so I have less stress on energy (My monk is more Protection oriented though).

Hector · Dec 28, 2005, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Thanks very much for the replies. Especially the tip about having a different set of equipment with the extra energy to swap in and out! That's really proven quite a useful little trick.

I've had a look at the build and decided to try swapping out the rez sig for Signet of Devotion. It was a strange feeling going into battle without rez, but I'm hoping we won't need that many of them anyway! I did rarely get a chance to use one before, so now I just pray that my teammates thought to pack them.

It's working out good so far. I'm trying to be more careful with when I heal and using the sig to top up health without wasting energy. It's all about trying to make that energy go further

Thanks.

Vexed Arcanist · Dec 29, 2005, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Drop your Blood to 8 and up your protection a bit. Give this a try, that is what I have my blood at for CA. The other stronger suggestions are drop Holy Veil for Signet of Devotion. Wait....are you playing with max Attributes?

My attributes are ~16 DF, 12 Protection and 8 Blood. I am guessing you are at 185 attributes and not 200?

Divine Boon
Reversal of Fortune
Guardian
Mend Ailment
Signet of Devotion
Offering of Blood
Protective Spirit/Divine Healing/Divine Intervention/Res Sig/Ally Hex Remover
Contemplation of Purity

That is what I run.

Hector · Dec 29, 2005, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Nope, it's a pvp character with 200 atribute points. Maybe you're using major or superior runes? I only use minor for pvp as I hate the hp hit otherwise.

Rico Carridan · Dec 29, 2005, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hector

I've been playing around with monks in CA lately and had some success, but still feel like I'm falling short somewhere. I'm hoping that I can get some advice here on ways to improve my monking! The build I'm using at the moment is as follows:

Mo/N

Blood Magic: 10
Protection Prayers: 8 +1
Divine Favour: 12 +1 +1

Skills:
1. Reversal of Fortune
2. Guardian
3. Mend Ailment
4. Contemplation of Purity
5. Divine Boon
6. Holy Veil
7. Offering of Blood
8. Rez Signet

The build seems to work fairly well, but I seem to run out of energy pretty quickly if I'm under attack, even if I only maintain the one enchantment (divine boon). I think the trouble might be I take more damage than my better armoured comrades and run out of energy trying to keep up. Then I'm too low on health to use OoB and die moments later.

Does anyone have any changes or pointers please to improve my game? Can this kind of monk work, or is it better really to go with a healing monk? Maybe I just need better energy management, or just more practice? I have tried healing prayers, but that's so frantic trying to keep up with spamming Orison and Dwayna's, and I die perhaps even faster with that type of build.

Thanks in advance.

I run almost the same build as you, except I have protective spirit in place of holy veil. Your stats seem a bit low, although I usually have one superior rune going, so I guess that could be the difference in terms of that.

I think your problem here is your execution. If you're running out of energy, that means that your spamming your skills too much. Ideally, you don't want to use more energy than you get back from your offerings and natural regen. Not always possible, yes, but ideally, that's what you should be aiming for. So the question is, how to make the most out of your skills?

Well, first, the fastest way to run out of energy is to start spamming RoF and Guardian everywhere. Don't. Only use guardian if the person is fighting a warrior; use reversal as a spike heal, ideally versus elementalists, or if a target is getting really weak, for example. Heal, mainly, only when people get to around 60% of max health, unless they have a condition. I use mend ailment fairly liberally, since conditions are common in CA, and treating them is usually very cost effective. Use offering whenever you get the chance, even under fire (unless your health is really low).

To keep yourself alive: if you're being attacked by a warrior, throw on guardian and start running/kiting. DON'T JUST STAND THERE. Running is an extremely important skill for monks, particularly against warriors. The damage that warriors can do on you is greatly reduced while running, because it takes them much longer to build up adrenaline. If they drop conditions on you, mend ailment yourself right away. You should basically be able to fight the entire battle under fire by one warrior and not have to worry about energy. If it's a ranger or elementalist, I would throw on protective spirit, and just strafe around try to dodge their attacks. If you haven't noticed, I'll spell it out just so it's absolutely clear: always keep moving.With mesmers/necros, use CoP when you get hexed (I only use CoP when I get hexed, I know other people use it more often, but I find that it isn't worth the energy to keep reapplying boon). Degenerating necros are a big problem for you (if they go after allies, you can always CoP yourself) since you don't have an effective method to fight the degenerating effects.

Personally, I think sig of devotion is worthless, mainly because the casting time is too high for me. What's the point of healing someone for a little bit of health if it means that you're going to take 2-3 hits yourself while you cast it? I know a lot of people like it, but since I usually don't have energy problems anyway, it never makes it into any of my builds.

Rico

Vexed Arcanist · Dec 29, 2005, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hector

Nope, it's a pvp character with 200 atribute points. Maybe you're using major or superior runes? I only use minor for pvp as I hate the hp hit otherwise.

You want 16 DF as a boon protectioner, trust me. 8 will do just fine in Blood, especially with Signet of Devotion to do the touch-up heals as you have breathing room. The rest in protection.

Hector · Dec 29, 2005, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Well I've put the rez sig back in. I'm alright leaving it out for GvG but CA is too random not to take one! Thanks for the tips on energy management, I'm really trying to watch my healing now and make sure not to overheal. At the moment I'm using the build in my first post but am currently trying out protective spirit in place of CoP.

I haven't really tried running from warriors. I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that warriors hit harder if you're running from them? Is that completely not true? It may have been the game manual I saw that... I can't remember now.

As for Signet of Devotion, it is a slow heal, but it's like a free Orison and ideal to use when I'm not under fire myself. But as I say, been trying out Protective Spirit and that really helps control heavy damage. Heh, so many choices.

Just going off topic for a bit, will a boon protector work in say tombs or GvG?

Vexed Arcanist · Dec 29, 2005, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Sig of Devotion heals more than Orison with max Divine Favor, and Boon benefits from max DF, and all your skills.

Not a chance in hell you would find me in Comp Arena without CoP.

ump · Dec 29, 2005, 06:21 PM // 18:21

I agree that Signet of Devotion is too slow casting for PvP. It's great in PvE though for a Boon Protector. Try using CoP for self-condition removal and Mend Condition for ally-condition removal (for CA only) at least once. Like I said, Mend Ailment is only better than Mend Condition if there are at least 3 conditions applied to a target, which is rare in CA. CoP is too good to drop and would definitely be the last skill that I would drop from my skill bar. Keep in mind that it has a 1/4 cast time, so it's really hard to stop for mesmers. If you want to try Protective Spirit use the Rez Signet slot or the Holy Veil slot. Also, try out the Superior Divine Favor rune as suggested. Remember, you get a double healing bonus from it when used with Divine Boon so you should be casting less often.

mr_boo · Dec 29, 2005, 08:30 PM // 20:30

I actually don't mind Sig of Devotion at all...it's 2 sec cast may be slow and open to interrupts, but when you get it off, it packs a nice heal and it's pretty good to use as a source of energy management...this is CA after all and not all teams are guaranteed to have a Ranger (since they are the most common sig interruptors out there).

Instead of Guardian, you may want to consider Shielding Hands. The damage reduction is nice of course and it does give you one less spammable spell to cast...this makes you of course more reliant on RoF and Mend Ailment for healing...so it's up to you.

Like ump posted above, a 20/20 blood staff (or wand + foci) will help OoB out...the +15 Energy -1 Energy Regen Foci swap will definitely help out especially against Energy Denial...if you get hit with your ED, you'd best swap out to your empty set as soon as you can.

Last tidbit...depending on your playstyle, don't be afraid to experiment with a Sup. Divine Favor rune...looking at your attributes as they stand right now, everything looks good, but if you do increase your DF, you'll notice a nice boost in your Divine Boon healing.

yesitsrob · Dec 30, 2005, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Hector - I used exactly the same build as you do, _definitely_ go for the 20/20 blood staff for the recharge on Offering of Blood. with backup +15 energy and focus if you come across Surge mesmers.

With offering of blood - don't just use it when you are low on energy, use it when you can, if you have 30 energy out of say 44, then use it - I have 10 in blood too, and I can't remember the exact gain on it - something like 13 energy gained if you include the casting cost of it so anything around 30 is a good time to use it.

With holy veil, cast it on yourself at the start of the battle along with divine boon, if you don't get hexed anytime soon then feel free to remove it - after that it's still one of the better hex removals (it's not used so much as an upkeeped enchantment after that, which is a common mistake people seem to make with it) - just cast it on your target, and quickly remove it, 5 energy, 1 second casting time, 10 second recharge, pretty awesome spell in my opinion.

In team arenas, a decent team really won't be expecting the monk the bring a ressurection signet, in which case I'd drop it for signet of devotion, but for CA I'd stick with the Res Signet

Rico Carridan · Dec 30, 2005, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hector

Well I've put the rez sig back in. I'm alright leaving it out for GvG but CA is too random not to take one! Thanks for the tips on energy management, I'm really trying to watch my healing now and make sure not to overheal. At the moment I'm using the build in my first post but am currently trying out protective spirit in place of CoP.

I haven't really tried running from warriors. I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that warriors hit harder if you're running from them? Is that completely not true? It may have been the game manual I saw that... I can't remember now.

If a warrior hits you in the back then his attacks are always critical hits. The extra damage can be fairly significant. There are two things to note though: first, if you start running before the warrior gets close to you, then he will only actually be able to take advantage of the extra damage once he gets close enough to engage. Since a lot of warriors don't bring speed boosts in comp arena, the only way he'll ever catch you is because you occasionally have to stop to heal your allies (and since all of your spells cast in 1/4 second, you shouldn't lose too much time), or if you get snared, which you should treat as soon as possible. If the warrior has already engaged you, you can still run, or better yet "kite," which is a special way of running where you don't have your back to the opponent, or at least, not most of the time. Try watching some high level monks play on Spec mode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hector

As for Signet of Devotion, it is a slow heal, but it's like a free Orison and ideal to use when I'm not under fire myself. But as I say, been trying out Protective Spirit and that really helps control heavy damage. Heh, so many choices.

As I said, I don't care for it, but a lot of people do. If it works for you, then by all means go for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hector

Just going off topic for a bit, will a boon protector work in say tombs or GvG?

People use similar builds in Tombs/GvG sometimes. Your skills would look a bit different, depending on exactly what build your team is running. Most likely, you'd be running Mo/Me, and you'd be using channeling for energy, mark of protection as your elite, and be part of an aegis chain, for example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ump

Try using CoP for self-condition removal and Mend Condition for ally-condition removal (for CA only) at least once. Like I said, Mend Ailment is only better than Mend Condition if there are at least 3 conditions applied to a target, which is rare in CA. CoP is too good to drop and would definitely be the last skill that I would drop from my skill bar.

I understand your reasoning here, but personally I really like being able to treat conditions on myself. Having to spend 10 energy (CoP + boon) to get rid of conditions is too costly, especially against a warrior or ranger who can reapply them quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_boo

Instead of Guardian, you may want to consider Shielding Hands. The damage reduction is nice of course and it does give you one less spammable spell to cast...this makes you of course more reliant on RoF and Mend Ailment for healing...so it's up to you.

I've got to disagree with you here. Guardian is a staple for prot monks, and is an incredibly useful spell. Shielding hands is great, but the recharge for it is really long, 25 seconds I think. In the average CA fight, that means you might be able to cast it ~3-4 times on average.

Rico

Racthoh · Dec 30, 2005, 08:53 AM // 08:53

If any character is running, it's a critical hit. Being hit from the back means that your shield's AL is not taken into affect (if what stands true from the "Importance of Positioning" thread is still accurate).

Signet of Devotion is a great skill to not only heal while saving energy, but to draw out attacks such as Distracting Shot. Use the signet, with your eyes fixed and targeting whatever you think is going to interrupt you. When you see the interrupt, cancel the signet. Works best on Rangers since it takes time for the arrow to fly to you so you'll have more time to cancel your action. Not to mention when you encounter the off mesmer that has to use 2-3 interrupts before they finally find the right one to interrupt it.

Protective Spirit IMO is not worth it in CA or TA for that matter. The odds of finding a spike that a RoF can't take care of is slim, especially in CA. Not to mention that a high DF CoP also has the 1/4 cast time and will heal for a LOT of health. It will teach you to kite and use the surroundings to your advantage properly as well. I prefer playing with spells that have a 5 energy cost only since boon is already stealing one of my pips of regen.

Hector · Dec 30, 2005, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Wow, didn't expect such a great amount of feedback! It's definately helping, so thanks for that.

Ok, so I'll try CoP back in again instead of Protective Spirit. I must admit, most of the time Holy Veil does the job nicely, but I do get stuck when I'm up against a good mesmer. CoP would really help out there I guess. I do like Protective Spirit though. Although in CA you don't tend to see so many co-ordinated spikes, I do notice the difference if say my Elementalist is under warrior attack. Spirit does help control the damage and give me some breathing space.

As for the staff/focus thing, I'm currently using a blood rod with improved recharge and a 20/20 protective symbol. I also carry a +15/-1 rod with a 20/20 blood symbol to swap in and hit OoB with. It's really helped as I can now get a cheeky OoB out along with a quick RoF or two before swapping back to my regular ones.

With Mend Ailment, I think I'm going to stick with this one myself. I do actually experience condition stacking fairly often myself. Usually with ranger types or warriors where I might get crippled, poisoned and weakened, for example. I did try Mend Condition, but the fact I couldn't cast it on myself was a real pain. I must be unlucky, I always seem to be getting conditions thrown at me. But I actually quite enjoy it as Mend Ailments is only 5 energy but heals for loads with Boon and extra conditions!

In the Guardian vs. Shielding Hands discussion, I would personally prefer Guardian. It is spammable in times of emergency and works well in this build I think.

With the running thing, there seems to be some contradiction here. Can anyone else confirm if all hits when running are crits please? I have experimented a bit. If I can start running before a warrior reaches me it's usually good. Honestly, the number of them in CA that will run around in circles whilst the rest of the team picks them off is a bit sad really. I almost feel sorry for them, they want me so badly

Having said that, hammer warriors are usually my worst nightmare. It seems the good ones will keep me knocked down constantly whilst they smash my frail body to dust. Failing that, a good mesmer will make my brain explode fairly quickly.

I've not had Signet of Devotion in for a while. I do think it's pretty handy but given the limited space for skills I tend to leave it on the bench lately. I would be tempted in a GvG team to bring it in place of rez sig, but then I daresay there's more useful things there too.

Speaking of GvG, what would be a good boon protector build for that then? Bearing in mind we're pretty inexperienced and will likely be aiming for a balanced team build to get a feel for it. I was thinking something like:

1. RoF
2. Guardian
3. Mend Ailment
4. Divine Boon
5. Holy Veil
6. Channeling
7. Mark of Protection
8. Aegis

Fairly similar, but as Rico Carridan suggested I've included Mark of Protection and Aegis. I imagine Aegis works out nicely for it's energy cost with such a large team in GvG you get your value from it.

Anyway, thanks so much for all the replies here. It's really helped!

EDIT: Forgot to mention the superior DF rune. I've not actually unlocked that one yet, but I'll give it a go when I've saved up the faction and see how it works out!

Rico Carridan · Jan 01, 2006, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hector

With Mend Ailment, I think I'm going to stick with this one myself. I do actually experience condition stacking fairly often myself. Usually with ranger types or warriors where I might get crippled, poisoned and weakened, for example. I did try Mend Condition, but the fact I couldn't cast it on myself was a real pain. I must be unlucky, I always seem to be getting conditions thrown at me. But I actually quite enjoy it as Mend Ailments is only 5 energy but heals for loads with Boon and extra conditions!

If you're using CoP, then you could safely use mend condition along with it, since CoP treats conditions on self. As I aluded to earlier, I find that the cost of CoP is generally too high (effectively 10 energy) to justify treating conditions, so I normally only use it for hexes. If you aren't bringing CoP, you have to bring mend ailment, since mend condition doesn't work on self.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hector

With the running thing, there seems to be some contradiction here. Can anyone else confirm if all hits when running are crits please? I have experimented a bit. If I can start running before a warrior reaches me it's usually good. Honestly, the number of them in CA that will run around in circles whilst the rest of the team picks them off is a bit sad really. I almost feel sorry for them, they want me so badly

From the thread Importance of Positioning I have the following quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Importance of Positioning

Now, another little known fact is that when a character is running any hit delivered to them will be a critical hit. When being beaten on by a Warrior or a Ranger often the worst move you can make is to turn and run to get away from them. You're just opening yourself up to a lot of pain. Sidestepping (using the Q and E default keys on the WASD movement set-up), however, doesn't incur any critical hits although you'll prevent yourself from attacking or using any skill with a casting time.

Note the important points: running away will incur critical hits, but strafing will not. Thus if you are being attacked by a warrior it is still beneficial to strafe to try to create space between you and slow his rate of attack. If you are facing a ranger, it is very beneficial to do so, because you can dodge his arrows, sometimes. That said, as a prot monk, I find it worthwhile to run away if I have guardian on against a warrior in close range, since the hit reduction from guardian helps compensate for the critical hits you may incur. You might want to investigate this. That said, you should still try to keep distance between you and warriors before they get close enough to engage. As you said, sometimes you can basically keep them running for a good while, and that really reduces the damage you take.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hector

Having said that, hammer warriors are usually my worst nightmare. It seems the good ones will keep me knocked down constantly whilst they smash my frail body to dust. Failing that, a good mesmer will make my brain explode fairly quickly.

There is very little you can do against hammer warriors as a monk. Their ability to knockdown and penetrate spells like guardian with some attacks makes them extremely formidable, and there really isn't much you can do. I haven't found a way to deal with them effectively as of yet in CA, other than to run away and hope for the best. In a more organized PvP, you can hide out near your trapper or other party member, and get some protection that way. If you're running an aegis chain (again, organized PvP), you can expect nearly 100% blocking against most physical attacks, which makes life much, much easier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hector

Speaking of GvG, what would be a good boon protector build for that then? Bearing in mind we're pretty inexperienced and will likely be aiming for a balanced team build to get a feel for it. I was thinking something like:

1. RoF
2. Guardian
3. Mend Ailment
4. Divine Boon
5. Holy Veil
6. Channeling
7. Mark of Protection
8. Aegis

Fairly similar, but as Rico Carridan suggested I've included Mark of Protection and Aegis. I imagine Aegis works out nicely for it's energy cost with such a large team in GvG you get your value from it.

Anyway, thanks so much for all the replies here. It's really helped!

EDIT: Forgot to mention the superior DF rune. I've not actually unlocked that one yet, but I'll give it a go when I've saved up the faction and see how it works out!

I suspect as a protect monk you will need protective spirit for you boon build. You can probably actually drop holy veil in this case, as long as you communicate well, somebody else will most likely be able to cover you. The build you play will depend almost exclusively on how your group chooses to play, I really can't give any more specific advice than I already have. Many (but not all!) groups like to have 2-3 monks with aegis, as I mentioned, so that they can maintain aegis at all times. Other groups don't bother. Some groups, you might not bring mend ailment because they have someone running martyr. Some people will probably disagree here, but I daresay that the only spells I can almost guarentee will make it into your build are protective spirit, channeling and maybe mark of protection and divine boon.
The others will depend on what your team plays.

Edit: Fixed link

Rico

Hector · Jan 01, 2006, 02:54 PM // 14:54

For GvG now, I've been trying:

1. RoF
2. Guardian
3. Mend Ailment
4. Protective Spirit / Aegis
5. CoP
6. Holy Veil
7. Divine Boon
8. OoB

It seems to work pretty well so far. Unlocked that superior rune for DF too and that's pretty good. I'll need to earn some more faction before I can try out channeling and MoP, etc.

And cheers for the info about the strafing. Should help out a lot!